Attention Grabbers

I get quite pissed off when I hear bastors talking about 'their' churches. Firstly, it's not theirs! Just because they rape the pockets of their parishoners for the glory of their building plans and programs don't mean they own it. The number of times I have heard stories of bastors saying no to things because it's not the way they want 'their' 'church' run without evening taking a vote with the other 'leaders' is appalling.

I don't get it aye... What are they trying to say really? Are they trying to compete on who has managed to suck in the most people with their false doctrine? Do they enjoying bragging to their other bastor mates as to how many people turn up to worship them every sunday, and most nights of the week? Is there some competion out there to see who can get the most people distracted from actually fulfilling the Great Commission? Wouldn't surprise me the way most of them carry on.

Regan » 26 September, 2003 2:46 PM

Chill Regan.

There are a lot of godly bastors out there who have been raised in a paradigm where these things are the main game. They aren't evil or seeking to 'rape' their churches. This is what they have been taught to do (for many many years).

I'm thinking of many of my friends who are godly humble people, but who are in the system and function according to it.

We all have our blind spots...

hamo » 27 September, 2003 1:16 AM

When I was involved with starting a new church, i used to HATE that question, which was always the second question pastors would ask one another while standing in line for coffee at some conference or another.

So, I started a new thing. I would ask them how long they had been there.

Often, to often "Professional Pastors" use a small church as a stepping stone to another, larger church. Quite an unholy thing, if you ask me.

So I started asking how long they had been there, and I would ignore the size thing. It got kinda cool actually, to be able to bless hardworking, faithful men and women of God.

Still, we are obsessed with size. My spam confirms that for me.

Randall » 27 September, 2003 3:54 PM

Hamo,

I don't understand how 'Godly' men can operate in a 'system' that is wrong, let alone function within it. They may not seem to be evil or to be raping their 'churches' but if they aren't discipling and investing into the lives of those in their communities then I would certainly have my questions. What good is a humble bastor if his next door neighbor is hungry or one of his 'flock' is unable to pay their rent? (How long we could make that list). The system is wrong and I can't accept that 'humble' 'Godly' men can 'honestly' lead within it if they are truly following the structures that the bible clearly outlines. There are many within the Body of Christ far more worthy of the 'rewards of ministry' than most bastors are and that is certainly one thing that needs to change.

Regan » 27 September, 2003 6:39 PM

When I've heard pastors speak like this, how 'big' their congregation is, I just want to love them! Why? Because it's so obvious to anyone with eyes to see, that all they're displaying is their humanity; which, is as I understand it, why God supplied a Saviour. In all of the hustle and bustle this life brings we sometimes forget our own humanity. Isn't it wonderful that the same grace that brought us to Jesus is available every day of our lives???!!!

larry » 27 September, 2003 6:50 PM

I think it is an awesome thing that God's amazing Grace has been provided to cover all of our shortcomings. However, is it acceptable when someone in a position of leadership continues to live out their existence from their humanity rather than in the humility of Christ? Maybe we have forgotten that it was pride that got one archangel's ass evicted and that God doesn't particular like that. I recall something about Him being jealous. After all, when we start making excuses that any mistake is acceptable because of our 'humanity', no matter how clear we think our vision may be it's kinda hard to determine anything when the light is switched off.

If we are to accept and write off pride as a flaw due to our humanity, how far do we go? Do we accept adultery? Paedophilia? The Church needs to wake up! Jesus was hardly 'loving' towards the pharisee's 'humanity' yet you seem to suggest an alternative approach. Rather than point out the error and correct it should we just sweep it under the carpet and smile with a cheery 'I love you brother'?

I am all for lovin, but I fear that the reason why bastors don't want to be held accountable or responsible for thier actions is that they fear they will be treated as outcasts in the same manner as they have (or in most cases have not) extended the hand of forgiveness and reconciliation.

Grace is truly wonderful, but God will not be mocked.

Regan » 27 September, 2003 10:07 PM

I might have missed something, but why do you write "pastors" as "bastors"? Just curious.

Jared » 28 September, 2003 12:49 AM

Hmmmm... so grace is available to all except paid church leaders?

Apart from not making sense this also re-inforces a second category of people 'the clergy'... of whom more is expected?...

Really?

BTW who is 'the church'?

have you had a bad experience of church Regan?

hamo » 28 September, 2003 8:57 AM

I never said "grace is available to all except paid church leaders". And as for 'the clergy of whom more is expected', that is only true because of the current structure that is not based on the model that the bible presents us with. The current structure has created a heirachy system that has no biblical foundation unless you take a large number of verses entirely out of context. And anyone who has to do that, you must ask what their alterior agenda is.

Whether someone has had a good or bad experience in 'church' means absolutely nothing in a discussion as to whether or not the structure is actually biblically legitimate.

I would argue the validity of paid 'church' leadership based on scripture, but from a fiscal perspective, you must ask what value the work of a leader has. For every dollar invested, how many lives are changed? Based on the total income of any given 'church', how many 'actual' lives are changed and then what is the average dollar amount per person? How many new 'converts' are introduced into a 'church' over the course of 12 months and how much money is invested in order to bring them in?

The system is wrong and needs to be changed. Unfortunately I can't see it happening because too many people aren't prepared to get their hands dirty and trust God to provide for them.

Regan » 29 September, 2003 11:23 AM