I was thinking about the same thing, Darren. This one is another no-win situation. Just like being anti-war meant you were automatically pro-Saddam. I'll assume that most Iragis are sincerely pleased that it looks like Saddam is out. Who wouldn't be? I am! However, I suspect those images will be rubbed in the noses of everyone who questioned the war.

It's an old story - the end justifies the means.

PS. Linking...

I really appreciate the complexity and mixed-ness of your responses, Darren.

And I guess the tone has been set then. If this really was about just war and freedom yada yada yada, well then, on to Iran, North Korea, China, etc... Let's get about the business of ushering in the kingdom of God by the sword...

you've just got sour grapes that you argued for a perspective that lost!

Ahh the power of "I told you so!", the irresistable urge. I have read a couple of statements today along the lines that this proves that the anti-war people were wrong.

To the victors go the spoils. They have the option of re-writing history. The war was won, therefore it was right to invade. This was successful, therefore there is no other way we could have acheived success.

That Josh guy is behaving like a gloating little boy! He has no grasp of the complexity of this issue. He has no ability to admit that others could possibly be right and that maybe just maybe other people might also have a handle of some element of the truth. I can't believe you had the courtesy to link to him - I surely never will when I start blogging.

Splendid post Darren, both here and and at Josh's place.

I'm surprised that none of the bloggers I've read this morning have mentioned this:

US Tells Iran, Syria, North Korea: Learn From Iraq

ROME (Reuters) - The United States on Wednesday warned countries it has accused of pursuing weapons of mass destruction, including Iran, Syria and North Korea, to "draw the appropriate lesson from Iraq."

Sounds like a threat to me. I fear they'll not stop here.

Great link, Irene.

Thank you, Darren. Thank you for putting in the good _and_ the bad, for acknowledging that we have contradictory emotions, and most particularly, for acting with grace towards others that don't share you point of view. Thank you for helping set my sights a little bit higher.

Lisa

I don't know why Josh chose to trash, misrepresent, demean, scorn and label me like that.

He has never emailed me for my opinion either.
I was trying to show him respect.

God forgive me, commenters were condemned and hurt too. If they need to tell me, I too will dialogue with grace with them.

Bene, why is it that so many bloggers have tried to "trash, misrepresent, demean, scorn and label" you like that? It seems to be a recurring theme among those that disagree with you. Anytime I've seen someone disagree with you, you claim you're hurt and offended. Respond with grace, and not charges of misrepresentation just because someone disagrees. It's something to ponder.

As it stands, Darren's post here is the first among anti-war bloggers that I've seen that has directly commented on the cheering and jubilation Iraqis continue to demonstrate with liberation. No, Bene, you did not address it. That is a statement of fact, not "trashing" you.

I appreciate Darren's comments here. However it still seems as though, in an effort to oppose war, many bloggers have not given equal attention to the horrible treatment Iraqis have suffered under Saddam. The million (yes, millions) that have died under his regime too often seem forgotten by those opposing war.

That is not to say the anti-war crowd is pro-Saddam. I believe that most do want him removed. However in your quest to somehow remove Saddam peacefully (I'm still unsure how that would happen), do not forget the plight of Iraqis under his regime. Few opposing war address it, and me saying that is far from "trashing," "gloating," or "demeaning." It's simply an observation - few are addressing it.

And in an effort to head off charges I know are coming, let me say that I do acknowledge, pray for, and worry about innocent civilians caught in the crossfire. Here's an example of one such post where I do that: http://www.joshclaybourn.com/blog/archives/000571.html

In sum, I feel as though I'm making an effort to address both the negatives and positives of this war. Unfortunately I do not get the impression that some bloggers (namely, the ones I emailed) address those positives. I was curious, and still am, as to how they interpret those positives.

If that's what success is, I'm not interested in it.

Success = removing from Saddam from power.

The debate has largely focused around how best to achieve that. Are you saying then, Christop, that you're not interested in removing Saddam from power?

It seems that Iraqi civilians have paid a high price to have Bush & Co. "remove Saddam from power."

How do I react to the positives of war? I dont think that there is much mroe I can add to what I've already said. I'm pleased that Saddam seems to have been taken out of power - I'm disappointed with the method and some of the ramifications of this method.

My feeling is that the celebrations are extremely premature. The Iraqi people are not free they are simply free of Saddam (a big plus in itself). We need to concern ourselves with what happens next. Let's not forget that the US was instrumental in putting Saddam into power in the first place. Let's hope they make a better choice on who they back next time.

Ah Joshua:

I see Richard Hall has responded to your 'curiousity.'
And he even uses emotion.:^)

See, that's part what I believe you aren't grasping, Joshua.
you are a 20 something college student and your achievements are measured by how well you learn. It's simply where you are. You are bright, but book learning ain't life experience. You have shone in school, and expect it to spill over on line.
I've honestly never dealt with anyone in your age group in blogging who became so rude and arrogant.
I've wanted to believe you wouldn't say things like you've written to peoples faces, but I'm not sure about that any more.

You can't tell a superintendent of the Methodist Church in Wales to hold his tongue sir, without coming across like a bratty kid. Connexions

You can't say Bene is a girl on a gracious Philippino site and not expect a clever US economics professor to smack you down like a sore loser.Mere Madness - Mark Byron

You can't shoot nonsense a 30 something Canadian lawyer in your comments and expect no fallout.
You can't alienate the wife of a Canadian blogger who is so good he gets more hits than most of us ever will, and pretend it's all ok.Wendy Cooper - Jordon Cooper

You can't tell a journalist they are middle school and think it's a big joke.BeneDiction

You can't call Rachel a girl and expect others to stand by and slap you on the back. Cre8d

This isn't your frat house.
You can't bait international bloggers and then plead curiousity.

Well, yeah, you can.

When you were a new blogger, you tried harder.
It was in your best interests to be relational.
There is something intuitive about that that seems to have slipped from your grasp.
Somewhere along the way, relationships got squandered for pundicy and proving,and cheap shots, and I don't know how much good will you have left to spend with some bloggers.
Ideology crowded out common sense.

Maybe being the blogosphere, there are endless possibilities for you.
I don't know.
You burned some bridges,and hopefully learned some life lessons.
We are real people, remember?
I can hope you walk away a bit wiser.

To answer your question, emotions play a part in my blogging too. There aren't 'many' bloggers I use those words about.
Just two actually.
And you are one of them.

I'm sorry you actually believe I was lacking grace.
I'm really sorry to see that circular thinking in my posts and other blogs evades you.
I'm sorry you have squandered some of your on line relational good will.
I'm sorry for your sake about your bridges Josh.
I answered your question on my blog. Guess it doesn't meet your logics and critical thinking textbook standards.

No one is going to huff and puff and blow you away here, it isn't that kind of blog.
It isn't at Richards.
It isn't at Rachels.
It isn't at mine.
Nope.
No one is going to blow you off, we'll just quietly back off.
I think you've been to busy yelling to notice.

Go get your hits and kicks somewhere else.
I'm done with this foolishness Joshua.

What was that bit about Mere Madness and Mark Byron?

I don't remember slapping Josh around; I merely said this at the time

It's Bene!-There was an interesting development at the Gannsies, where Josh Claybourn stated that the Favorite Christian Blog winner Bene Diction was a "she." Bene is carefully coy about the gender issue.

Hi Mark:
I guess your Barney joke wasn't a slap down.
My apology for using the term 'slap down'.

I thought it had put Joshs comment in perspective though! Blog on!

I’m looking forward to your commentary on Iraqis celebrating the fall of Saddam Hussein and his evil regime.

That means "I told you so?"

You know, for a bunch of folks who like to flaunt their holiness, you sure could learn something about not seeking ways to take offense at others.

And I still don't think it's very sporting for a blogger who refuses to identify himself/herself to take shots at someone who makes no secret of who he his or what his views are. We may be "real people," but when you hide behind a pseudonym, some of that reality is lost.

Hi Bobby:

Ask Josh about the pseudonym.
Or email me and ask me, ok?